22 thoughts on “Shelling of a Park in Kramatorsk”

  1. as far as i remember, this happened just before the peace talks and was used by poroshenko to win over the media. both sides put the blame on each other, calling it a provocation aimed at undermining efforts to seek a peaceful solution

    please, next time post this video and show the other side of the medal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz4G7r0Q5Sw

    its the infamous ukrainian air strike on lugansk when a ukrainian su-25 bombed the administrative building, killing and wounding lots of ppl around. the ukrainian side said the warplane was “peacefully” flying over the territory, when an invisible “terrorist” tried to shoot it down with a strela-3, but the missile guided itself to an air conditioner on the wall (!), misfired, started bouncing off the ground, repeatedly exploded like a firecracker and then hit the building – all against the laws of physics (another video: watch?v=nHniUXYMo9U). thousands of ukrainians brainwashed by their media were celebrating the death of “colorado beetles” and “drunk bandits” in their comments – that’s how they call citizens of donbass. they called a dying woman “a female of a colorado beetle” and added: “the more, the better”. here’s a bunch of their comments saved on one page: http://rusvesna.su/recent_opinions/1401819625. u can find such things all over youtube

    that’s what the media is doing to the ppl… 🙁

    now finally, all this is coming to an end, peace talks are about to start.


      Everything that happens after that, when the invadee defends himself from the invader, can and must be blamed on the invader. WITHOUT UN MANDATE, THE INVADER IS ALWAYS WRONG. Be it France, the US, Russia, China or Liechtenstein.

      So, blame Russia for ALL the deads in this war…

      • yeah, sure. did you tell that to the coalition against iraq in 2003 or to india in 1961, when it invaded and annexed goa? the us and its cronies wage proxy wars wherever they want, arm and support “rebels” in other countries, invade them under false pretexts, stage coup d’etats and legitimize what is profitable for them, but when russia supports its people oppressed in a neighboring country and engages in a proxy war against the unconstitutional government in kiev, it’s not ok.

        do you believe that, say, china wouldn’t send any support to the 9 million chinese living in thailand if the thai government waged war on them? if you do, you’re living in an imaginary world. as a half-ukrainian, half-russian who has relatives in donbass, i have to say russia had at least a moral right to intervene and defend its ppl, it was the only country that cared about us. those who don’t like it may go to hell

        • Yes, I said exactly the same thing in 2003. In 1961 I wasn’t born, so I could not, but I would have. And, in 2003, the American trollers and warmongers called me French coward/collaborator. And I didn’t give a f..k about their position, which proved to be wrong.

          I also said the same thing when MY country, France, attacked Libya some years ago.

          And I would definitely say the same thing, over and over again : A COUNTRY HAS NO RIGHT TO INVADE ITS NEIGHBOR. WHATEVER THE REASONS. NOT A SINGLE RIGHT !

          Never good to be right, before everybody. But I don’t give a f..k about your position, all the more as it is wrong 🙂 You’ll be on the wrong side of History. Sorry for you…

          • well, alain, i’ve read a lot of your comments, u seem to be a good person in general, but i’m afraid we won’t agree with each other because for my people this war is not a game, its our chance to defend our rights. i was born in the rostov region, on the border with ukraine, but my ancestors lived in artyomovo (donbas) for ages, lots of my friends and relatives are still there, i visited this region during the crisis, saw the protesters, the rebels and the ukrainian marines with my very eyes and know the situation first hand. i still keep in touch with a lot of ppl there and trust me, they all want to have at least to gain a *guaranteed* autonomy or reunite with russia. nobody wants to be stuck in a country where we are hated and mistreated, called “bandits”, “scum” and the root of all evil, where western ukrainians celebrate our deaths, send death wishes to our web accounts and keep saying that ukraine should be “cleaned” from us, where ukrainian soldiers from western regions mistreat us and steal our property, where everything russian is slowly being eradicated etc. how do u think we are supposed to live there? we will be “left on the wrong side of history” only if we get stuck in ukraine, a country that doesnt give even a flying f…ck about our rights.

            • Sorry to say, but I don’t think this war is a game either. No wars are game.
              For me, Ukraine has done ONE mistake : trying to think Ukrainian could be the only official language in the country. This proved to be a huge mistake for everybody. My position on this would have been : Russian as official language on oblast level, for any oblast asking for it by a majority of vote. BUT, in exchange, Ukrainian MANDATORY at school for everybody until 10yo. Same thing in Ireland for Irish, for French, German and Italian in Switzerland, and fair enough : there is no war in Ireland or Switzerland because of that 🙂

              Beside this, my position will never change, whatever the country : A COUNTRY HAS NO RIGHT TO INVADE ITS NEIGHBOR. WHATEVER THE REASONS. NOT A SINGLE RIGHT ! So, you can tell whatever you want on this, Russia will always be wrong on this war. Always. As Igor Girkin said, there would have been no war in Donbass if Russia had not sent its soldiers. Maybe a handful of loonies would have died. A few others would have been sent to prison, and that would have been all.

              Finally, and you’ll be happy with it : I tend to think now that Ukraine should let alone Donbas. It should of course sue Russia for the war and annexation of Crimea and war damages, but let Donbas with its so-called “democratic” leaders. You wanted to be independent ? So be it : go. You’ll love it, I promise ! Your region is a dead weight for the Ukrainian budget, and cannot live on its own. Your industries are outdated and cannot compete in the international market without heavy subsidies. Too many of your people live on subsidies. And, finally, all the scums who plundered Ukraine have come from your region. You don’t know how to live out of corruption, in a fair, democratic world. So, yes, definitely, leave Ukraine. Ukraine will be stronger without you. And you. Well, I don’t mind. You asked for it. You deserve it…

              Of course, Russia may help you on surviving. But I am sure it does not want. Too expansive for its budget and the sanctions which will, of course, not end there. So you’ll be on your own. And I give 10 years to come back, feeling sorry for all this. And I REALLY hope that it will happen this way. The other Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine have perfectly understood the realities of the Russian World, and do not want of it. They know that their future is brighter out of the corrupt Russian World, even if the path will be hard away from it…

              • alain, i was wrong when i called u “a good person in general”. in general, you’re just a ridiculous idiot.

                “Ukraine has done ONE mistake”

                it has done plenty of mistakes. the biggest one is that it didn’t transform its unitary system into a federalist one – cultural and linguistic differences between the regions have been ignored. it also appointed the government of yatseniuk in violation of the constitution and allowed far-right paramilitary groups to attack administrative buildings and spread the “revolution” by force and against the will of our citizens. this plunged the country into chaos and sparked the civil war.

                “there would have been no war in Donbass if Russia had not sent its soldiers.”

                there had already been war going on in donbass when russia started supporting the rebels. also, it is likely that even if the rebels had been defeated in open combat, they would have resorted to ira tactics.

                “You wanted to be independent ? So be it : go. You’ll love it, I promise !”

                yeah, we WILL love it, I promise! because unlike you, we respect and stay true to the traditions and customs of our russian past. even though the russian federation in its current form is far from being perfect, it is our motherland and we’re proud to be part of it again and defend our heritage and identity. there is nothing that can take our country and our culture away from us – neither the limitrophe and corrupt state of ukraine nor anything else. so yeah, we will love being free from oppression and being part of russia again – mark my words!

                “And, finally, all the scums who plundered Ukraine have come from your region”

                are you being high on weed or something? kuchma, kravchuk and yushchenko were born outside of donbass, yet they gave ukraine the reputation of being one of the most corrupt countries in the world. the only president to come from donetsk oblast was yanukovych. under him, corruption was rife indeed, but it had been a threat to national security long before him. we voted for him only because we thought that with him in power there would be no danger for the status of the rus language.

                “You don’t know how to live out of corruption, in a fair, democratic world”

                do you really believe there is a nation in the world that has no idea how to live out of corruption? we had to live in a corrupt country for ages, but it weren’t we who made that country corrupt – every single region of ukraine has been plagued with corruption since 1991. nothing has changed since then, and i doubt that anything will ever change. the fate of ukraine is to be a dead weight for the eu budget and a source for corruption and low-income migrant workers for ages.

                and sorry for saying that, but we won’t be on our own. we will slowly rebuild the region with the help of a much luckier country. as for “the other Russian-speaking regions of Ukraine”, people there are not satisfied with what they’ve got, there’s a growing discontent and a large percentage of pro-russian citizens, but they can’t change anything now.

                “the corrupt Russian World”

                the russian world cannot be “corrupt” because this term means a cultural unity. this “world” consists of all those who speak russian, belong to the russian culture, feel part of it and think of themselves as russians, wherever they may live. the fact that today russia and, say, china have numerous problems doesn’t mean that russians or, say, chinese should not stand for their language, culture and identity, i.e. defend their “worlds”.


                  That said, you can say what you want, your reasoning will be, to my eyes, biased and wrong. Even if I’ll be happy like you with a free Donbass, unrecognized to the world like Crimea, Abkhazia, South Ossetia or Transnistria. And nobody to help you repair. I wish you luck and will not go farther. Loss of time and energy, which I need for more interesting things…

                  • it is better to live in a country that is not officially recognized yet but is free from oppression and helped by its motherland. i suggest that u ask south ossetians or abkhazians as to whether they want to live in partially recognized states or be subjected to discrimination by georgia again – they will tell you a good story about the difference between freedom and oppression.

                    as for the mandate… unfortunately, russia is not the usa, it doesn’t have enough allies and hegemony over the un to legitimize everything it does. also, even western democracies go beyond un mandates and stage coup d’etats in other countries (like the 28 mordad coup in iran), support and arm foreign rebels, etc. global politics is a more complicated thing than you expect it to be.

      • Futile effort, Alain. For better understanding of a current state of mind in Putinstan, I suggest pravda.ru, the rag also has English version. You will be lucky to find a single UA-related article which does not include words like “fashist”, “Nazi”, “junta” etc. Re Minsk talks – nobody really believes they will lead to anything. E.g. German press commented that Merkel “played the role of a police negotiator trying to convince a criminal that he should put down the gun he keeps at the hostage´s head”. Quite good comparison.

        • It looks like our ignorant Czech “analyst” with his favourite reference to pravda.ru, perhaps the only Russian web source he has ever visited, pretends to be an expert on “a current state of mind in Putinstan” (with his own “state of mind” being of great interest to the study of intellectual disability). Since you have no idea what you’re talking about, kid, let me enlighten you on this point: in Russia, or Putinstan, there are media channels openly critical of Putin (the “Echo of Moscow”, owned by Gazprom Media, supports the Kiev government and has been critical of Putin since the 2000s), Russian TV channels have talk shows like “Pravo golosa” (Right of Speech), where spokesmen for Ukraine voice their opinions and keep bashing Putin for months. A significant number of Russian public figures have openly criticised his policy towards Ukraine, the vast majority of Russian TV channels don’t label Poroshenko or Yatseniuk as “Fascists” or “junta” (both terms were applied to the government of Yatseniuk by the Russian-speaking protesters in 2014), they put the emphasis on the suffering of the Russian-speaking population of the Donets Basin. This is not to mention the fact that Russian Internet users visit Ukrainian news websites and engage in debates with their Ukrainian neighbours. There is a variety of opinions on the current conflict.

  2. False Flag operation by Poroshenko Ukrainian Army!!!
    1.They Attacked Kramatorsk, where only ethnic Russians live !
    2.Separatist Defense forces did not have Artillery capable to Shoot at such distances (80km) from nearest Border points with

    • In Kramatorsk two targets were shelled – the airstrip and the current ATO operations center. The airstrip was hit to some extent, but the rest landed on civil objects. It was hit by BM-30 Smerch. The launching rocket nearly always stays intact after landing, stuck in the ground or other structures, so it is possible to identify it and to estimate launch site direction/distance to some extent. The max range of such system is 120km.

      And why you say that separatists do not have such systems? Why do you think in the current peace negotiation document both sides are required to move out all rockets based artillery not less than 140 km from the front line?

  3. False Flag operation by Poroshenko Ukrainian Army!!! 1.They Attacked Kramatorsk, where only ethnic Russians live ! 2.Separatist Defense forces did not have Artillery capable to Shoot at such distances (80km) from nearest Border points with Novorossiya.

    • Two names, same comment : Russian troller. Getting tired to repeat the same thing, so they don’t even take time to rewrite it… Missing money ?

      • He probably chose another nickname because of premoderation lag. He forgot the old and repeated post again in a few moments later with new one. He is not a troll. He is a newbie here.

  4. Russian army need to stay out of Ukraina. It’s as simple as this. This situation is cause by Russian. All dumbass excuses are bullshit. I don’t have anything against Russian people. I hope they’ll soon notice how sick their leaders are.


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