175 Chechen Battles: 1994-1995

Chechen Battles: 1994-1995

Posted on September 2, 2012 by team


January 1995 in Grozny, the capital of Chechnya. What was it like?

Ruins, black soot, wrecked and burned military equipment and weapons, broken walls, mud, mangled bodies...

It's when people, in a full mess, beat not the enemy but those who were on their side. They say that every second one was killed this way.


Across the network:

loading...

Information from Wikipedia: The First Battle of Grozny was the Russian Army's invasion and subsequent conquest of the Chechen capital, Grozny, during the early months of the First Chechen War. The attack lasted from December 1994 to March 1995, resulted in the military occupation of the city by the Russian Army and rallied most of the Chechen nation around the separatist government of Dzhokhar Dudayev.

The initial assault resulted in very high Russian Army casualties and an almost complete breakdown of morale in the Russian forces. It took them another two months of heavy fighting, and a change in their tactics, before they were able to capture Grozny. The battle caused enormous destruction and casualties amongst the civilian population and saw the heaviest bombing campaign in Europe since the end of World War II. Chechen separatist forces recaptured the city in August 1996, ending the war.

For the two days of New Year's battles Russians lost more than a thousand of people. For two weeks after the first attack the divisions were trying to correct the numerous errors and blunders of generals.
In these bloody battles Russian troops were losing about 40 people a day...

Advertisement


Across the network:

175 Responses to “Chechen Battles: 1994-1995”

  1. maxaue says:

    I guess the Desert Storm was the first war fully covered by mass media.

  2. mrya says:

    It was,and still is, a proxy war between the western fascist forces and their local wahabi clients (now exported to other places to destabilize and regime change, like Libya and Syria)to try to disintegrate Russia.

    • Mardar says:

      Some of the same people that taught some of the Chechnians to fight the Russian Army ALSO taught the insurgents in Iraq to fight US forces. Wahhabi’s are a rather hard line branch of Islam that dislikes both the Russia, the USA, democracy and dictatorships. They really don’t like *anyone* that does not follow their brand of Islam. Let’s not forget that the former leader of Lybia was a nutball dictator and the current leader of Syria is a butcher. THAT is the reason the people are revolting.

    • Jeebs says:

      Disintegrate Russia? why I ask?

      • Tiger says:

        @Jeebs

        Ever heard of Zbiginiev Brzezinski or Madleine Albright? Both have repeadetly advocated splitting up Russia to gain access to its natural resources. This “vision” has been expressed in one form or another by other US officials and politicians, such as John McCain, Hillary Clinton and recently by Mitt Romney who sees Russia as America´s biggest threat, a proof of his lack of intellectual capacity. Ignoring that the biggest threat to the US is crime, drugs and deindustrialization on the home front and islamism, China and immigration from the south which might split the country again.

    • Fred Johnson says:

      No, you got it backwards. The middle east is yet another “fire” that russia and/or china started, knowing the USA would go in there and try to put it out, thereby expending THEIR resources (money etc..) making them weaker. And so far, it’s working. russia and china grow stronger, while the USA grows weaker because we’ve run around putting out the fires that were started by the communist leaders.
      Started mostly right after WWII. Just about every hot spot around the globe, was started by them.
      russia disintegrated on it’s own, because it’s a socialist state, which can’t survive. It fails everywhere, so don’t feel bad. china took the smart way out.

      • Jack the Roofer says:

        You forgot Israel’s policies altogether (meaning, some arabs simply don’t like land theft, israelis don’t like to be bombed, so you have there eternal conflict, as long it’s useful).

        And also you forgot the number of thuggish dictators/rulers that the US supported (and still does) all around the globe. One of them was the Taliban and their friends, that ended up levelling your WTC and the Pentagon.

        Cold War left a lot of victims and shattered countries, and the main players, the US and Soviet, never recognized any responsability of their fate. Shame on both.

      • Tiger says:

        @Fred Johnson

        The middle east is always on fire and the Islamists, US and Israel are always part of that. Tell me more about how Russia or China ignite wars and chaos in the region. Maybe you are mixing things up…?

      • Asmodeus says:

        @Fred,

        Palestinans are much more annoyed about land grabbing, not just because they are ‘islamists’. There are some Christian Arabs with them, also very angry.

        Illegal land grabbing from Israel it’s their whole point for bombing the ‘settlers’ and their friends. Religion only helps in war (for both sides).

        If the strongest side benefits from war and mayhem, it will just continue. No mistery here.

        And Russians can’t fix this situation.

  3. Takolander says:

    It must have been hell, I’m happy I wasn’t there. Just imagine being a raw recruit and being sent there.

  4. Sasha says:

    Know some veterans. At times not the most pleasant people to be around. Slightly schizofrenic and paranoia. One moment the sweetest fathers and husbands, the next moment…..

    • Tiger says:

      Yes? Go to a war like this and come back with all your nerves? People crack normally under much more lesser pressure than that.

  5. whistleblower says:

    viva free chechenya !

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Shamil

    RUSSIA ALWAYS ATTACKON WEAKER ! IS WITHOUT HONOR !

    • vorontsevich says:

      Hmm. Chechens like to profess themselves as Muslims, do they not? I did my time in N.Kavkaz, and I looked up some books at the officers lounge there. Apparently, it is forbidden in Islam to conduct war without declaring war. And according to the Islamic prophet, Muslims should not kill any old person, any child, or any woman. They also should not kill the monks in monasteries (so priests in churches). They should not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship (both mosques and churches are places of worship). They also should not attack a wounded person; No prisoner should be put to the sword.

      Dubrovka- 130 hostages dead in a terrorist attack
      Beslan- over 330 hostages dead, over 180 of which were children (about as innocent as you can get)

      Don’t put Chechnya/Chechens and honor together. They have never match, and never will. Perhaps a better place to pout your russophobic shyte will be on kavkazcenter.com. They folks there would welcome you with open arms, I’m sure. Or maybe you might wanna actually go to Chechnya and say “viva free chechenya !”, (whatever that means) to the face of the local MVD patrols. But you might wanna save up for some facial “re-arrangement” afterwards.

      • (r)evolutionist says:

        Excellent comments, vorontsevich. The Chechen Republic of Ichkeria was a basket case.

        • vorontsevich says:

          Thanks (r)evolutionist.

          Just out of curiosity, what do most Westerners KNOW about the whole situation in the N.Kavkaz? (dont take it the wrong way, I just want to know how much you guys know)

          • (r)evolutionist says:

            As far as I can see, very little. It had very little coverage in the national media. One had to actively search for info. I learned most by reading, checking the BBC sources, and watching one good doc, “Farewell to Grozny” which aired on the PBS channels here in the U.S. (which means few people saw it)

            • Matlok says:

              You are right there (r)evolutionist! Most people here in the U.S. at least, Know little if anything about it, and sadly most people don’t care and don’t see how it has any bearing on the “big picture”. You are also correct in that you have to actively search. You have to want to know and be interested. But the same can be said for just about any events on your side of the planet vorontsevich. I usually nose around the BBC, RIA Novosti, THE MOSCOW NEWS, and some other sources, but it takes time. BTW are either of you two on face book by chance?

          • too much vodka says:

            Why only the Northern Caucasus, it is defenitely linked to the situation in het Southern Caucasus as well. One could return the question, by the way: how many ordinary Russians really understand what is going one there?

            • vorontsevich says:

              The south caucasus is not part of Russia now is it. Knowing you and your russophobia (you’ll deny it), I’d say you have some piece of “historical information” that none in Russia knows but apparently western historians/analysts found after some meticulous brainstorming. So spit it out.

    • Iraqui Survivor says:

      @whistleblower
      Tell me about attacks on Weaker!

    • Tiger says:

      @whistleblower:

      1st: learn English before You post here

      2nd: The Chechens killed and cleansed some 400,000 people from the area, including Russians, Greeks, Armenians, Ossetians and others. These groups made up almost 50% of the population. How honorable is that to You? And about Imam Shamil, he defected to the Russian side and lived a high society life in Kiev, similar to Kadyrov who also changed sides for money.

  6. Maddak says:

    All that death…
    All that destruction…
    All that suffering…

    Somewhere, somebody made a nice profit!

  7. s1alker says:

    Urban warfare is always rough.

  8. MAC says:

    Soviet/Russia doctrine is to use human waves just like the Korean war, same Communist mandate.

    • Ball Breaker says:

      That wins wars.

    • vorontsevich says:

      And look at the results. Russia still exists. The same can’t be said of some of the enemies that these “human waves” you talk of, went up against.

      • too much vodka says:

        Yes, Russia still exists – but without Poland and Finland after loosing the First World War, without control over Afghanistan after loosing the war there, without control over Poland, the DDR, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Mongolia and without Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbeidjan, Tadjikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Khazachstan, Uzbekistan, Moldavia and Turkmenistan. Some Russians like to boast about the huge victories they had in the past, especially against Napoleon and Hitler, but with a huge loss of territory and with losing the Crimean War, the war against Japan, the First World War, the Afghan War and the First Chechen War and after the disastrous Polish-Soviet War, the civil war and the Winter War, the harsh government of the first two Soviet rulers, the dark years of the Great Patriotic War and the collapse of both tsarist Russia and the Soviet Union, one would consider Russian history of the last 150 years to be a tragedy rather than a glorious story. It’s in fact a miracle Russia still exists, thanks to the resilience of it’s people having to endure leaders who did their best to destroy the country.

        • vorontsevich says:

          And the whole point of your comment is what?! “That Russia still exists, thanks to the resilience of it’s people” which in case you didn’t process it, was kinda the whole point of my comment. Yeesh.

          We lost territories, so that means its a tragedy? If it had been the other way round, and Russia had annexed more territories, it would have been the age-old line of communist/soviet/russian imperialism/aggression. No matter what, you (you personally), will never find any thing good about us or our history. Good thing your opinion doesnt count.

          • Jeebs says:

            If his opinion didn’t matter why respond at all?

            And don’t respond to my question is also doesn’t count nor does it exist just keep on walking

            • vorontsevich says:

              I meant his opinion about whethter OUR history (by our I mean Russia’s) doesn’t matter. But of course, I should have known you would take offense.

          • Tiger says:

            Why? He is not wrong. Russia was ill governed in the last 95 years. And by ill-governed I mean really badly ill-governed. The red czars and the so called “democrats” ran Russia into the ground: economically, demographically and socially. Russia does not need control over foreign people. It should better concentrated to regain control over its own matters. It should get rid of the dead freight and go back to restart. The money splashed on military and geopolitical games is better invested in overhauling its ailing and backward industry. But that of course means no armoured SUVs and S-Class for the bureaucracy. And this of course cannot be. And as long as it will be, Russia will be poor brothel for the world, living from exporting raw materials and desperate people. You think nobody sees that from the outside? They see more than you think.

    • vorontsevich says:

      Besides, there was nothing particularly communist about the old Red Armys infantry tactics. They were used by the Tsars to beat back Napoleon. But, its second nature to you to blame all of lifes problems on communism, so no real surprises.

      • Tiger says:

        Typical communistic was the incompetence. BTW the idiot Kwaschtschin, who planned the disastrous storm on Grozny was active until he retired one year or so ago. Remember: Commies are just incompetent and neglect their own people. They have no sense of responsibility. The Americans are not the brightest nation, but they care more about their soldiers and would not let them walk in to the quagmire. They lost the last four wars (Iraq I, Yugo, Afghanistan and Iraq II) less soldiers than Russia in just the first Chechen War (which was a defeat as they were expelled from Grozny in August 1996). But yes, maybe Your daddy has an FSB passport and a Maybach, so communism must be really good for your kind….

        • vorontsevich says:

          Vashe nevezhestvo i nenavist dlya komunizma zastavlyayut vas skazat zabavniye veshchi. I zdes ya dumal, chto Amerikanskiy paren znal, kak skazat dermo, no vy nakhodites v razlichnoy lige.

          “Remember: Commies are just incompetent and neglect their own people.”

          Pomnite? Pochemu ne delayut vy snachala izuchayete nekotoryye fakty. No zhdite, vy-to, chto tot zhe samyy idiot, kotoryy ubezhden, chto Tsarskaya era byla luchshey v istorii Rossii. Eto govorit dostatochno o vashem intellekte.

          “But yes, maybe Your daddy has an FSB passport and a Maybach, so communism must be really good for your kind”

          Khoroshey popytki, idiota. Posledniy moyey semi, chtoby byt chlenom kommunisticheskoy partii byl moim dedushkoy, i dazhe togda eto bylo tak, chtoby on mog prodvinut yego voyennuyu karyeru, potomu chto chinovniki opredelennogo razryada dolzhny byli byt chlenami chasti v to vremya.

          “for your kind”

          Vash vid? Lol. Chto Vy znayete o moikh politicheskikh sklonnostyakh? Tolko, potomu chto ya ne vizhu kommunizm kak vse-zlaya sila, kotoraya razrushila Rossiyu (soglasno vam), ne oznachayet, chto ya yavlyayus kommunisticheskim. Ya rodilsya pod komunizmom i provodil moi gody detstva pod etim, ya znayu chto kak. No ochevidno eto byl ves lozh, vse bylo tolko fasadom, chtoby durachit menya, po krayney mere soglasno istoricheskomu geniyu to yest, vam. Te dni byli nekotorymi iz luchshikh dney moyey zhizni, konechno luchshe chem 1990-yye (kotoryy byl adom), i nachalo 2000-ykh. V nastoyashcheye vremya, veshchi namnogo luchshe, no eto ne budet imet znacheniye dlya vas, Putin yavlyayetsya otvetstvennym.

          • Tiger says:

            Otchen Chorosho stho twoj dedushka byl kommunist i ubival swoj narod I kulturu. etim ty mozhesch ochen gordit’sja. A moj dedushka i pradedushka byli borzami za tsarstwa protiv nemcev, turkov i communstov, dla russkogo naroda i vseh pravoslavnyh christian. Eto i est’ rasniza mezhdu mojej i twojej semjoj. Mi stroili nashu rodinu a vy tolko lomaete.
            Ti ni ponemaesh shto ludi bolshe ne mogut zhdat’. Gde modernizatia? Kuda idut dengi? Gde rabochie mesta? U Rossiji w principe vso jest: neft, gas, zoloto i horosho obuchennye ljudi. 70 let kommunizma i 20 let kgb-evreyskaya-islamskogo jiga, russkie ludi ne mogut bolshe.
            I Putin i Rogozin dumaet o prestige projektov kak olimpia i stanzija na lune, a oni ne dumajut stroit dla ludei normalnye doma i normalnye dorogi. Vy ubivaete nashu rodinu i nash narod dla novy mashini i dorogih chasova.
            Blagodarja takim ljudjam kak ti, u na si dalsche net Rodiny. Pojetomu ja sejchas zhivu v Germanii i rabotaiu, i zhiviu chorosho i luche chem w rossijii. Normalnye i tallantlevye ludi idiut na zapad i v ameriku potomu chto w rossiji chansov prosto net. W Rossiji tolko chorosho dla evreev, musul’man, emigrantov i ludei kak ty (vragov naroda).

            • vorontsevich says:

              You obviously have problems with Russia hosting the Olympics and the World Cup. While they are expensive, its not like the stadiums are going to be built just for the tournament, they will stay long after that. Look at England before and after 1966. The same thing could happen to Russia, and considering the strength of the sbornaya, very likely. The moon base is far too unrealistic, so you can atleast not worry about “that money being spent on fly-the-flag stuff”.

              And as for your general “contempt” (mild word) for everyone whos not Russian (or even Russians that don’t agree with you), why are you so surprised or indignant when they don’t respect you. It’s attitudes like that cause all the trouble. Ever heard of tolerance?

              BTW, if you fancy life in the West why don’t you just pack up and go there? It would certainly help bring our average IQ up. But, the grass is always greener on the other side.

              • Tiger says:

                As long as there is no universal healthcare, decent pensions and living conditions there is no reason to waste money on “fly-the-flag” stuff! In Germany you see the ads from Russian orphanariums and poor families who asko for donations in every second supermarket. The Russian church here collects money from the people and even from the Germans to pay for such things and the government host winter games. And don´t get me wrong. I am not a slavic nationalist, but there are nationality conflicts in Russia with the muslim minorities. The same problem BTW the west has with its muslim migrants from Turkey, Asia and the arabic countries.

                • vorontsevich says:

                  “As long as there is no universal healthcare, decent pensions and living conditions” Universal healthcare is a pretty stretchy thing. Sure, its not like in France, but its significantly improved and is going to keep improving. The pension scheme needs more work, but it’s not a question of money, more about bureaucracy. Most people already have decent living conditions and things are improving (whether you believe it or not). Besides, no money is “wasted” on the olympics or the world cup. In Sochi, a new Metro is being built, along with new airports (not just for Sochi, but for Krasnodar as well). There is nothing wasteful about spending money on public transportation. Also lots of new power plants were built in the region. Thats progress, not money wasted.

                  “but there are nationality conflicts in Russia with the muslim minorities.” Such problems are there in any place thats multi-ethnic. Hating each other isn’t the solution.

                  • Tiger says:

                    So what is then the solution? Ignoring the fact that people don´t get along? The solution is that when two people cannot live in one flat you seperate them. Either one goes and the other keeps the flat or if possible you split the flat in two and there you go. You are either married or divorced. Otherwise living together makes no sense.
                    Staging olympic games would have made sense if there would have been a realistic chance that other people than Russians or post-SSR-nations travel there. But in fact no sizeable numbers of Americans or Europeans will ever travel to Sochi. There are so many other and cheaper destinations on this planet they are familiar with. And in fact, Russia is not really famous for its hospitality abroad. The money would have been better administered to provide credits for businesses in the area (not only tourism, but industry – for instance solar technology and geothermal energy- food processing and agriculture). The leadership still does not understand how a market economy works…they still think in big state run projects like the old days.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      And one of the main points of the winter games, and later the world cup, is to try and change that image that most westerner have of Russia (and even some, pessimists like you). Or would you rather things always stay the same?

                      Since you brought up America, take it for an example. American blacks and whites haven’t exactly got along very well in the past. I think things are different now, although of course, there will always be haters on each side that refuse to live together.

                      The world isn’t black and white.

                      The olympics and world cup aren’t dependent on whether you can live in peace with your Chechen neighbours or not.

                      “The leadership still does not understand how a market economy works…they still think in big state run projects like the old days.” Oh sure, that must be why the Russian economy is growing unlike most of the europe, because the government doesnt understand macro and micro economies. I wonder then, who was it that did, you perhaps? Lol.

                  • Tiger says:

                    BTW: universal healthcare is not stretchy at all. It means that all citizens will have access to the best treatments available, no matter how much it costs and this free of further charges. For this of course, everybody pays via taxes or in the case of Russia, the raw material export sector will bear the brunt of the costs. But without this you are not among the civilzed nations.
                    In Germany or France people get deductions from their salaries and thus get the right to the most modern and advanced treatments. A friend of mine was diagnosed with a very serious chronical illness and the whole treatment mounted up to 60,000EUR. Of course in Germany, as a student he just paid 50EUR per month into the health system, but he got the whole treatment like every other human being (he wasn´t even a citizen, nor did he have a permanent and unlimited residence permit). The whole process took him a year and a half and now he is cured and can keep on living. That is one of the reasons the losers of WWII are livining longer lives than the victors from the former USSR.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      Can you read? “Sure, its not like in France, but its significantly improved and is going to keep improving.” It’s a working progress. Change doesn’t happen overnight.

                    • Tiger says:

                      In Russia the change doesn´t happen overnight, it doesn´t happen at all or too slow.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      Talk about narrow minded.

                      So basically what you’re saying is change will never happen in Russia. So in your eyes, it’s a hopeless situation. If thats how you feel, then just forget all about Russia, stop giving out “advice” on how to run the country, and continue to live life in Germany, “where life has never been better”.

          • Tiger says:

            BTW You must know that many good officers were killed after the war by Kadirovs men and some even were convicted although they have done no wrong, just so the Chechens could rejoice. As if the soldiers went there on they own behalf. They were ordered to go into Chechnya by the same government that tried them later for alleged war crimes, like Budanov and others. A government that spits on its heroes has lost any legitimacy. Russia is still under the communist yoke. They still want to build a multinational empire to play the big game, but they give a rat´s ass about their own people. The Chechens hate the Russians since the first Cossacks arrived in the banks of the Terek. They will never be loyal and in fact never were.

            • vorontsevich says:

              Budanov was a sad case, he was a good tankman, and a good soldier. But a few bad things don’t discount good things.. And you would do well to keep your hate for the Chechens under control. They may hate you, but if you think you’re better then you might as well as BE the better person and be tolerant.

              I am not even going to bother about your beef with Putin and communism, its a lost cause.

              • Tiger says:

                Tolerant to those who kill my people ?!?!??! I guess this sort of “christianity” has its uses…only for whom?
                If you are playing the tolerance card, there is no sentence in the Evangelium that commands christians to endure persecution. In fact Jesus said that what is done against the least of his brother is done against himself. And that is the call for revenge and war in such cases. Maybe you should not listen to ex-KGB priests like Gundjaev who try to make the people “endure and repent” all the time so they can keep calm.
                The only difference between us and the muslism is that their jihad can be declared on all “infidels”, but we can only wage war if we are attacked. I guess after 500,000 people killed or displaced and after so many terror strikes in Russia proper, there are enough reasons. We should the Chechens go and sent all the way back to their homeland, and this is the most humane solution.

                • vorontsevich says:

                  Tolerance has nothing to do with a religion. Its a simple moral, not specific to any religion.

                  “Tolerant to those who kill my people” So your solution is to continue the cycle? That will only result in more people dying. Some one has got to stop, and if its us, then even better. If they don’t follow suit, bad luck to them. Grad batteries don’t care.

                  “Maybe you should not listen to ex-KGB priests like Gundjaev” I may call myself an Orthodox Christian, but you won’t find me at a church. Lol.

                  “Maybe you should not listen to ex-KGB priests like Gundjaev” Well, considering that their homeland is Chechnya, I’d say they are already in their homeland. Lol.

                  • Tiger says:

                    But waging war, then rebuilding everything, then waging another war, then rebuilding everything again, putting a terrorist in chrage and pouring him trillions of RUB, letting his people (who have killed and persecuted Russians before) travel and settle throughout the country and than acting suprised it doesn´t work out (like in Petrosawodsk for instance and every day in Moscow – you remember the name Swiridov)…that does not sound like a good plan to me.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      And what would be a better plan? Carrying out genocide or locking up ethnic minorities in ghettos of sorts?

                    • Tiger says:

                      Why? Is Tajikistan a Ghetto? It is an independent state. What is wrong with Chechnya and Dagestan becoming such states too? You are really mixed up.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      “What is wrong with Chechnya and Dagestan becoming such states too?” You are the one that just talked about pouring in trillions of rubles into Chechnya. And after all that, after losing thousands of soldiers to keep the place under Russia control, you still want to just let them go? And yet, I’m the mixed up one.

                    • Tiger says:

                      Granting them independence means that the money transfer will end. Better end it now, than pouring more and more money into the black whole. About loosing thousands of soldiers: a country that aborts more than 1 million children per year, which is more than the EU27 and US combined should focus on its own people. And yes the lives lost in these wars were wasted, sad but true.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      “should focus on its own people.” Who are its own people? Were the soldiers not Russians? Most of the Chechens are Russian citizens like it or not. The reason things are dying down in the Caucasus is because most Chechens are “appeased”. If not, they’d be up in arms. What would you rather have? And for that matter, what is it to you? You don’t live here, your knowledge about Russia is limited to probably just Krasnodar and to whenever you were here last, god knows when that was. You really should give up your Russian passport/citizenship, because not only have you found a new flag, looks like you’ve already made your goodbyes as well. Good riddance too.

                    • Tiger says:

                      So according to you I only have the choice between paying them money, so they keep more or less calm, or an open civil war that affects the whole region? So are you willing to pay the jizya (google it) for them?
                      I choose the third way: independence of Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia, no more money, and sealed off borders, all passports relinquished and all djgiti back home. Then they can take up arms and scream all day long, but without our money and without our blood. And if they even touch the border, they get a massive airstrike. The Israelis are again a good example of how to deal with such problems.
                      They are demanding more and more and the Russian cities are decaying. No, sorry, but this Russian state is a loser state, paying tribute to keep everything calm and to have the illusion of control – flying the flag (btw a typical soviet nationality policy, this is how central asia and the caucasus republics were made “loyal”).

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      Whoever said anything about paying them money? Lol. The choices are give them basic necessities, make them part of the federation (as opposed to people like you branding them second class citizens and inferior people). Or you could give independence to Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia, no more money, and seal off the borders, relinquish all passports and send all djgiti back home. And when things don’t work out, they are going to come back in streams (which will turn into a flood), and they will take it out on nearby Russians. And we’re back to the proverbial square one. And BTW, YOU don’t have to make a choice. YOU don’t live here, should be concerned about more important choices closer to your “new” home.

                      “They get a massive airstrike” Lol. What do you think this is? Some kind of video game where you can just call in airstrikes and Su-25’s will scramble and arrive on station within seconds? Lol.

                      “The Israelis are again a good example of how to deal with such problems.” Yes, that worked out great. More and more Palestinians wanting to kill Israelis. Totally fool-proof plan, that one.

                      “the illusion of control” It’s not an illusion when Russian soldiers control the streets and cities and towns, and when the insurgents are reduced to the mountains. Sorry but you are hopelessly behind on the current situation. And dont start with more bull***t about Chechens with MVD passports raiding Krasnodar. Lol.

                    • Tiger says:

                      What part of the reality do you not understand? The muslims in the caucasus don´t want to be part of the Kremlin show. They want independence, that was what the war was about. They do not want to live with Russians (at least if is not sugarcoated by massive money transfers) and said it loud and clear and without any misunderstandings.
                      The same goes for Putin´s pipe dream, the so called “Eurasian Union”. Even the governments of the central asian countries have stated that they are not interested in a closer relationship with Russia despite all potential economic benefits. They focus on Turkey with whom they have their lingusitic and cultural ties and maybe do business with China, where they get most of their manufactured goods from. What should Kazahstan get from Russia? Oil, gas, wheat? They all got this too. Ladas and Kamaz trucks? This they can buy without any closer union.
                      And about the Tatars, as of now, they have made no larger trouble. In the early 90s they almost declared independence too, but stopped short of it (Tatarstan is inhabited by 50% non Tatars BTW, so declaring full independence is not realistic without bloodshed and they are not ready for this – Bashkiria has a similar setup). On top they are part of Russia since Ivan the Terrible conquered Kazan in the 16th century and got heavily assimilated. In general You cannot compare the Volga muslims with the caucasus, where the Russians have barely stayed for 150 years (after a long and bloody war) and where the revolts and clashes are frequent (most notably the two chechen wars and the Dagestan and Ingushetia insurgency). The caucasus muslism also don´t see Russia, but Turkey as their future. So you are fighting a war against windmills.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      You keep thinking that. It will do us a lot of good. Lol.

  9. MAC says:

    Russia is the #1 arms arsenal of the world, they do have the best weapons but this is what they focused 100% of their economy on…

    • vorontsevich says:

      Your comments bear a remarkable similarity to those of a certain Mercal. Which is why I can’t believe I’m so stupid as to even reply to you, knowing fully well that you will never reply. But hey, what the hell, here goes.

      The defence budget is around 4% of the annual GDP. Even adding the two ongoing GPV’s, (over one trillion $) thats still a long, long way to go to get even near the proclaimed 100%.

      Besides if the military got even 50% of the GDPs worth (around $900 mil.), then there would be all T-90’s in the military (and none of the older T-72s or T-80s) everyone would be issued Ak-10x’s, and the PAK FA and LMFS programs might have born fruit already.

      • Tiger says:

        Yes You are right about the 4%, but the best weapons go to Kadirov to shoot Russian Cossacks in Stavropol and the Russian Army has 80s equipment. You may know it already or not, that is the next war. The chechen expansion into Russia proper. Thanks Vowa, thanks Dima. You are great.
        We know the stories and are fed up with the commie propaganda. This is the reason westeners can spit on Russia rightfully so, being governed by traitors.

        • vorontsevich says:

          “Yes You are right about the 4%, but the best weapons go to Kadirov to shoot Russian Cossacks in Stavropol and the Russian Army has 80s equipment.”

          Lol. How exactly do you make these things up? You make it look easy. “but the best weapons go to Kadirov to shoot Russian Cossacks in Stavropol.” FYI, Ak-74m’s aren’t either the most modern weapons or the best weapons Russia is buying. But they are the most common weapons going to the Chechen milita and MVD forces. But nice try.

          “the Russian Army has 80’s equipment” Theres nothing wrong with having 80’s equipment, because they get the job done. If its not broken, don’t fix it. Besides, both SAP’s are supposed to bring up new equipment levels to 70% by 2020 (bit optimistic IMO, but still better than nothing).

          “You may know it already or not, that is the next war. The chechen expansion into Russia proper.” Again, you talking of knowledge. It’s just weird people who have none talking about knowledge. The Chechens have yet to take over the whole of Chechnya before they can move into Russia proper. Bet you never heard of it, but the North Caucasus is under RUSSIAN control, not Chechen.

          “We know the stories and are fed up with the commie propaganda. This is the reason westeners can spit on Russia rightfully so, being governed by traitors.” Yeah, right. Like you need to an excuse.

          Fed up with commie propaganda? You obviously have problems with commmunism, and judging by your comments you tend to equate anything and anyone that doesn’t agree with you to communism or propaganda. Maybe you should try to get all that Western propanganda out of your head. Only in the west, it’s not propaganda at all, its merely “Public relations” or something. Same way that in the west, its not corruption, but merely “political lobbying”.

          • Tiger says:

            I don´t need the west and I don´t need communism either. What I need is a home and a country to be proud of and not a self-service money printing machine for KGBs, Caucasus mafia and zhidy.

            • vorontsevich says:

              Lol. Are you sure thats all you need? Because it sure sounds like you want everything in life to be perfect.

              • Tiger says:

                I guess it is perfect for you…

                • vorontsevich says:

                  Not perfect, but it is home, and I live a happy life, with a loving wife, and three year-old daughter. I make damn good money, with a good (although borig) job, I have a good house. And I’m pretty happy.

                  But I worked for all that. I didn’t just sit at home, waiting for Mercedes cars to just appear in front. Thats the difference between the two of us.

            • vorontsevich says:

              “a country to be proud of” is what you need? Well then, Russia isn’t what you’re looking for. A nation with hundreds of years of rich history, great culture and tradition, a unique language (something that not many nations can boast about), etc… and if you still can’t find something to be proud of it, then you should look for a new country. Sure, things aren’t perfect, there is plenty of improvement, but change doesn’t happen overnight, and it won’t happen if those in the “opposition” like you shoot down any plan or project thats good, just because the government isn’t yours. You’re whats wrong with the country.

              “If you are ashamed to stand by your own colors, you had better seek another flag”.

              • Tiger says:

                Utter bull***t. What is left to be proud of? The mafia state? The low living standard? The widespread corruption and economic backwardness? That ordinary people cannot have decent lives? That there is still no working administration or health care system? That the heroes of the great patriotic war live in shacks and the cacasus mafiosi dwells in palaces?
                One does not celebrate wrong patriotism in such times! One spits in both hands and starts working and fixing things. Not hosting olympic games and building space stations.
                That is what for instance the Germans did after they lost their wars. They gave away lands they could not keep and concentrated on what was left. And the whole country was in ruins, being bombarded by allies bombers every night. There is barely a larger city left with pre-war buildings. And today, they do much better than all of Russia with all its oil and gas and stuff. Because they do have a working government, and an enterpreneurial elite with a sense of responsibility. Owners of the successful German industy do not display their wealth like the bydlo in Russia. There are billionaires and they walk in the parks in front of their factories without bodyguards, because they care about their people and environment. Nobody hates them and nobody is afraid of them. Due to my consulting-job I even know some of them. They invest in their business and in their people. They do not buy yachts for 1 billion USD and most of them they pay their taxes (up to more than 50% – not just 13% like in Russia). Some of them do business in Russia and they are donating money for orphanariums and the oligarchs in Russia buy British football teams (heck why should they care about “Russian” children at all, not their business). They agree that their employees need universal healthcare and fair pensions. That is not my country. But these are achievements to be proud of. I love my home-country, but of this mess, I cannot really be proud of. And if you have seen both countries, you would not be sure who actually won the 2nd world war. Former Nazi soldiers drive mercs and live in houses and the liberators of Buchenwald live in shacks. Are you sure you are still proud of the current situation? If I would be an official or president in Russia I would not be able to sleep at night nor hold any “victory” parades until it is all fixed.

                • Tiger says:

                  and by fixing things I mean fixing things like there no tomorrow. Not sit on the pechka and wait 20 more years. Actually Russia can learn some things from the west. And by this I don´t mean PussyRiot and liberalism, but how to get things done. I would be glad to see that once in my lifetime somethings works down there. If I have that feeling. I would return in no time, throw away my German passport and come back. I even had investors being interested in developing agriculture in the south, but under the current circumstances no one sane in mind invests a penny down there. You have to pay the mafia, then comes the governor (Tkashev is not exactly a bright example of honesty) and his cronies. No thanks. We could invest up to 100 million in machinery, soil and well paid jobs with (with western salary levels). It is all there, but with insecurity, no thanks. How can I guarentee that no one comes and takes the business away? The is, you can´t. There is no bona fide acquisition of lands since there is no proper property register (in a country that has seen the largest transfer of assets in the last 20 years – this is sub-saharan legal practise). So basically some guy comes with a forged 15 year old purchasing contract and claimes your land and you get no restitution. Even the legal system is lagging behind by miles, not to mention the courts.

                  • vorontsevich says:

                    Well. In your eyes, there is nothing positive about Russia, so just give up your russian citizenship and don’t shame yourself further by being associated with this “mafia state, with low life standards, etc…” Besides sound like you’ve already found a new flag to swear allegiance to, so go ahead.

                    • Tiger says:

                      What do you have with your flags all the time? You don´t swear allegiance to a piece of cloth! You are loyal to a nation or to an idea or to a faith. What does this cloth mean, when it means self-destruction? And for sure, allegiance to a government is again an idiocy. The government should swear allegeance to its people. Sadly though the communist virus still hold Russia in its grip, not understanding that a goverment is there for its people and not the other way around.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      By flag, I mean the Russian flag. It stands as a symbol of a nation. In other words, by swearing allegiance to another flag, you are swearing allegiance to another nation. Kapeesh?

                      Your hatred of both communism and the current government has combined together to provide something very entertaining.

          • Tiger says:

            Not the caucasus is under Russian control, but Russia under caucasian control.You have little flourishing firm? They come and take the profit. And if you don´t bow to their will, they kill you. And then they go back to Grosny and the Russian police cannot do anything about this. Putin wanted to russify the caucasus, but already achieved the opposite.

            • vorontsevich says:

              I’ve been to Chechnya twice, and I’ve been to Grozny too. It’s not the militia or even the “chechens that come and take the profit” that control things there, its the MVD and FSB, backed up by the military. Why do you think the four spetsnaz battalions are flying the Russian flag, and responding to Russian commanders? If the N.Kavkaz is under their control, why should they want to spend a minute flying the flag of a “foreign” country?

              Maybe if you put aside, your hatred/fear for Chechens and actually went there, you might see things for what they are.

              • Tiger says:

                Chechens with MVD passport raiding villages in Stavropolski and Krasnodarsky Krai to be correct. My family actually comes from Krasnordarsky Krai. So I get all the info still first hand. I know all the nationalities and I grew up in an multinational and multicultural area. In particular the Caucasus muslims hate Russia and they hate Russians, go and ask them yourself (why do you think we have that terror and had two wars down there?). If you live in contemporary Moscow it should not be difficult to ask them face2face. They will be quite open if you conceal that you are Russian (say you are a tatar or bashkir, they will be open – if they understand you are Russian they will sing the song about friendship and later spit behind your back). The only groups loyal to Russia down there are christians: the Armenians, the Greeks, most of the Ossetians and some Abhaz. That´s it. The rest, Balkars, Cherkez, Kabardins, Adyghe, Chechens, Ingush, Awars, Dargin and so on, they all basically hate Russia. In their perception they were free people until the Russians arrived and forced them into a common state. It is only the money coming in from Moscow that keeps them in the federation and not even this works really. And yes they commit crimes against “infidels”, because in their eyes it is not a crime, but a good cause to drive them out of the region that was once theirs in their perception (although not completly true). Even the children in 1st class beat each other up because of this religion stuff. It makes no sense. You cannot force them to love you. Give them their territories and independence and send them all back home and that´s it. They would be happier living their ways and we would be safer and happier not being on guard all the time.

                • vorontsevich says:

                  And do you really think, that for some reason if Russia were to “let go”, that they would just ignore Russia, with all it’s “infidels” not to mention that quite a few of them would have scores to settle with some people beyond the border.

                  • Tiger says:

                    If there is a closed border and some army units guarding it, all they can do dance lezginka, shot in the air and scream allahakbar all day long. And we would not have a terror problem anymore since there are none of them inside our borders. And we save money for subsidies and can finally use to funds for something useful!

              • Tiger says:

                And if you talk about the battalions vostok or zapad, the only semi-loyal guy is Kakiev (I think zapad), but still he is not in charge. Yamadaev was a former jihadist and is now dead. The Kadirovsti usually beat and even sometimes kill Russian soldiers, that is why the Russian army stays behind the fences in Khankala base, like back then in the 80s in Bagram air base and let the “indigenious” do the job. It is just a waste of lives and good money.
                Close the borders, send the “djigits” all home and salam aleikum dorogoi we have peace and they can introduce sharia or the code napoleon or common law or whatever they please. They can have an emirate or a sultanate or a republic or a dictatorship, it will be their own business.

                • vorontsevich says:

                  Then who is in charge of the battalions? Huh? Both Zapad and Vostok went in to Georgia. Not forgetting Yug ans Sever.

                  “The Kadirovsti usually beat and even sometimes kill Russian soldiers, that is why the Russian army stays behind the fences in Khankala base,” This is bull***t. I did two tours in the caucasus. The first was to

                  • vorontsevich says:

                    Then who is in charge of the battalions? Huh? Both Zapad and Vostok went in to Georgia. Not forgetting Yug ans Sever.
                    “The Kadirovsti usually beat and even sometimes kill Russian soldiers, that is why the Russian army stays behind the fences in Khankala base,” This is bull***t. I did two tours in the caucasus. The first was to Vladikavkaz, and the second was to Khankala, home of the Zapad and Vostok. I did patrols, mostly to the river banks. But I didn’t just stay behind the fences, which is what your family or whoever you get your information from, thinks we do.

                    • Tiger says:

                      You can do ten tours and still not understand their mentality and hate. And Vladikavkas is predominantly christian, so that does not count since there is no real danger.
                      And the argument with Georgia is invalid since this was an operation against christian soldiers and for the Chechens it is an honour to kill them. But once it goes against an islamic army they will change sides in no time and shot you in the back. How many civil wars in muslim states do you want to loose before you get it that there can be no peace in that regions?

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      @Tiger

                      By tours, I meant military tours (officially called tours of duty), not some sort of sightseeing tour. Lol. And by to Vladikavkaz, I mean thats the garrison I was assigned to for the duration of my tour. Vladikavkaz comes under N.Caucasus command (now known as southern command).

                      They went into Georgia because they were told to. By Russian commanders. If they want to kill christian soldiers, they don’t have to look far, they are surrounded by them already. Therefore, “this was an operation against christian soldiers and for the Chechens it is an honour to kill them.” is invalid.

                      “But once it goes against an islamic army they will change sides in no time and shot you in the back.” So you do you think they go up against everyday, huh? Chechens call themselves Muslims, so yeah everyday they go up against Muslims and yet its them that end up in being shot.

                    • Tiger says:

                      I repeat: Afganistan, Tajikistan, Chechyna twice and Dagestan is about to explode any day. Not to forget the extremists in Tatarstan and Bashkiria. Then of course the numerous terror acts in Moscow. How much proof do you need? Maybe if something happens in your cosy central Russian milk-farm village?

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      Proof of what? That there is a conflict in the Caucasus? I already knew that. Thats the reason I volunteered for the Caucasus tours, so that I could maybe get some experience. Not because I loved the hospitality of the locals, or I wanted to see the beauty of the mountains.

                      Yes. The situation there could deteriorate any day. Whats your point? There’s a reason why southern command gets so much personnel, second only to the Moscow garrisons. There are two full spetsnaz brigades there, along with the four Muslim battalions, plus an airborne brigade. Thats more spetsnaz and VDV concentrated to one region than anywhere else in the country. They are there for a reason.

                    • Tiger says:

                      Proof that there will be no peace down that the muslim caucasus state should be granted independence (icluding repatriation of those who live in Russia proper, and the last Russians who remain in those countries to Russian territories – otherwise the remaining minorities will be targeted for revenge) and that everything else is just delaying the inevitable. How much more brigades and battalions do you want to waste down there?

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      What brigades and battallions are being wasted down there? The war itself is over, a long time ago too. Now it’s mostly counter-insurgency going on. Thats why you don’t see checkpoints at every street or dug-in squads in front of every major building. The brigades are there to put down overwhelming force if ever needed, and also to face off against Georgia, again if needed.

                      BTW, look at Malaysia (one country to which I’ve been). Ethnic Malays are Muslim, Indians are Hindu and Chinese are Buddhists or something. And yet, they get along quite well.

                    • Tiger says:

                      No they do not and we already discussed this.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      “No they do not” If by that you refer to this, “Ethnic Malays are Muslim, Indians are Hindu and Chinese are Buddhists or something. And yet, they get along quite well.” then there is no hope for you. It’s called the truth, Tiger. Pity you can’t seem to realise that.

    • Ball Breaker says:

      “…Russia is the #1 arms arsenal of the world, they do have the best weapons but this is what they focused 100% of their economy …”

      You are projecting your pain, because that’s exactly a description of current US troubles. And you already ran out of money.

      • Tiger says:

        Yes, go to Russia and the US troubles might seem quite comforting. The lowest earning region in the US has a median income of 17,000 USD which is still higher than the Russian average. And most people do not live in Moscow or get a job on the oilrigs and gas-fields. In fact, the defence industry (and of course natural resources) is the only one left that is competitive on the world market. The rest is just rubbish since nobody invested there for more than 20 years. White Nigeria with a weapons depot governed by dubious minorities and KGB-commies. Great job Gorbachew, Yelzin and Vowa.

        • Tiger says:

          I forget to add. The competitiveness of the industry of course lies in its low-wage work-force with salaries between 200 and 600 USD per month. Actually, a Russian Tank or a Russian plane is so cheap, that even old NATO equipment costs more. Because all the KGBs can do, is selling Russian products cheaper, no matter if the wages are lower than in China. Even the Russian oil and gas is cheaper although being produced at higher costs.

          • Ball Breaker says:

            Tiger,
            US current troubles happen because it’s Gov spends much more than it can collect. And their Military expense is the highest in the world by far. USSR collapsed because of that.

            USSR’s collapse and aftermath was probably the worst economic disaster in modern times. Russia now has a lot of big problems, but is growing now. The US has a lot problems, and it’s NOT growing, its borrowing a lot money from abroad since the Bush years, just to do their everyday business. Anything can happen there (and in the EU, the same).

            I agree with most points of your reply, and I also stand by my comment.

            • Tiger says:

              The USSR was constantly collapsing since it was founded, that is the difference. And modern Russia under Jelzin and Putin is just a rebranding. They may have balanced budgets since 2000 and boast hundreds of billions in reserve funds, but the people get nothing out of this.
              The US is making the same mistakes, but still is on a totally different/higher level than Russia.

              • Ball Breaker says:

                “…The USSR was constantly collapsing since it was founded…”. I don’t think so. USSR grew a lot after WWII. Irresponsible imbalance came with stalinist Brezhnev, and Gorby/Yestsin mismanaged the whole thing.

                “people get nothing out of this” They have. Poverty has been reduced. The dimension of the economic breakdown was enormous, so I don’t expect Russia to be like the US economy next month, but give it time. China took 35 years to be one of the biggest economies in the world. I think Russians will do even better in probably less time. But not in 5 years. Keep it up.

                • Tiger says:

                  The USSR grew jack. The commies couldn´t do anything right. They turned the country with the largest and best soils on the planet into a grain importer. A once growing and competitive industry was practically beheaded, the consumer industry practically vanished and all that was left was a huge defense sector that consumed 50% of the GDP. If they would have continued the NEP of Lenin in the 20s and if they would not have touched the large farmers, maybe but really maybe, the economic disaster could have been avoided. But then there is still the problem of nationalities and religions. The muslims on the soviet territory never wanted to live with Russians, they literally hated them and when they had the chance to revenge on them, they did so, most prominent in Chechnya, Dagestan, Azerbajdzan and Tajikistan, where once sizable Russian populations of up to 50% dwindled rapidly even before 89 due to harassment on national and religious grounds. Then there the latin-catholic and protestant nations in the baltics and western Ukraine who also hate orthodox Russians. In the Baltics they did not murder them like in the muslim states, but they introduced a sort of Apartheid, leaving the Russians as a sort of 2nd class people with no voting rights.
                  And this is the problem: the commies and their still ruling successors in mind do not understand that this not merely about empty shelves and income. This is a national-religious problem and the only longlasting solution is seperation one way or another. You can either take back your people to Russia proper or you can try to make the minorites emigrate. There is no harmony of people´s and in fact there never was.

                  • vorontsevich says:

                    You complain about Russians being harrased/murdered for their ethnicity and the Apartheid in the Baltics, but you want to do the same thing to the ethnic minorities here. “Practice what you teach.” And you still wonder why there is no “harmony of people’s”.

                    • Tiger says:

                      No it is just about fair standards. They want independence and drive out all the Russians? Fine! So we can do the same. Or are you also supporting the slogan “Russia for everybody” while those people you tolerate on the costs of your own kind spit on your people daily? And BTW tolerance always comes with a cost, the only question is, who pays the price? And I did not say murder or something like that. I just said, send them back and don´t let them come again, the same thing they do with you.

                    • Tiger says:

                      And there is no “friendship of peoples” because it does not work. It did not work in the USSR, it did not work in Yugoslavia and it does not work in contemporary Russia or even in western Europe. It is not about money and social standards, it is just about that some religions and people just cannot go together peacefully. You can live with this reality and draw consequences from this or still keep on living the pipe dream and face the consequences later. The Europeans pay and provide everything for their minorities: healthcare, housing, unemployment support, schooling, universities…the full package most ordinary Russians don´get at home still. But still those minorties hate the Europeans although they have come here without pressure. They take the money and the benefits, but they don´t say thank you. Now there are whole areas and even cities in Europe you cannot go if you are not one of them. It is just reality and you must get rid of your soviet inspired perception of man.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      @Tiger

                      No. I don’t support the slogan “Russia for everybody”. Yes, I’m ethnic Russian but I don’t want to drive anyone else out, for a number of reasons. First, my boss, is a Muslim (a Tartar) and he pays me handsomely to protect him from people like you. He’s from a different ethnicity, a different religion and yet, he and I get along just fine.

                      “send them back” Where exactly is back? In case you haven’t noticed their “homelands” are part of the federation. And while I may not tow the Russian supremacist line, I am completely against giving up any of our land.

                    • Tiger says:

                      So your Tatar pays you money to protect him from your fellow Russians :) … you are a good boy. Now I understand you much better, you have the mentality of a serf.
                      I work for a US consulting firm, but I don´t support the US or its policies. I work and they pay me well, it is business and not affection. It is a consulting service andother firms pay for it because they are in trouble or have needs. And if somebody pays me better I move on, but I don´t make a personal opinion out of this. In fact when I studied in Germany I was living in an international students dorm with all nationalities and all religions and I have good old friends from Algeria and Marocco who studied with me. But individual relationships are different from general relationships. At the end we are all falling back to the old patterns when things get a bit harder. And just because I had two british girlfriends back then doesn´t make the british press more positive about Russia, nor does it make its people think more positive about us.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      @Tiger

                      Lol @ u. How thick can you get? He doesn’t pay me to protect him from Russians, but from people like you, as in people that can’t accept ethnic minorities. After I left the army and began looking for work privately, I found out that it pays better if your boss happens to one of the ethnic minorities, mainly because some people (like you) can’t stand them.

                      And Lol @ you trying to insult me by calling me a serf. Oh so you live in Germany, huh? Tell me more about how that somehow makes you superior to me. Now it makes sense, why you think that the Tsarist era was the best in Russian history. You wouldn’t by any chance happen to have ancestors who were nobility back then, do you?

                    • Tiger says:

                      No my ancestors were not nobles, but hard working people who had built their own enterprise over the generations with hard work. They had hotels,ships and a bread factory. Their employees were paid well (most of them were family anyway). In fact they had greek ancestry, since they fled from the ottoman empire to Russia. So the racist card does not work here my friend. But anyway, it seems that I am more Russian than. Russian is not about blood or genes, but about giving a little s***t about this country and how it could really work in the future.

                    • Tiger says:

                      I forgot to add that there were also Armenians and Germans from my fathers side. And even Poles. So I am not really quilifying for the Skinhead crew…sorry to disappoint you.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      Funny that you should interpret my jab at your family being nobles (which means the aristocracy), and twist it as somehow playing the race card.

                      “but about giving a little s***t about this country and how it could really work in the future.” So in your twisted mind, you should always look to the future? Never a glance at the present? Lol. Then why work toward a future in the first place, when you’re just not going to care about it later on? Lol.

                      Ahh. Poles and Germans on your family tree, huh? Well, I looked up my ancestry up, and managed to trace back to my great-great grandmother. As far as I know, I’m 100% ethnic Russian (some of my fathers side did come from Kharkiv, now in Ukraine, but back then there was no such thing as Ukraine, and besides, it’s Kharkiv anyway). Apparently, I have “more right to really qualify for the Skinhead crew”, yet you don’t see me doing that.

                  • Ball Breaker says:

                    @Tiger

                    Funny that all the positive things I mentioned (very important) for you are worthless because you simply can’t stand your minorities. You hate people a lot.

                    “You can either take back your people to Russia proper or you can try to make the minorites emigrate…”. News flash: That won’t happen, so you better get used to have them around. Or you can look at Yugoslavia: they way you think (or hate), dismembered it in blood.

                    A lot of things need to be corrected, but Russia is doing very important things right, and you can’t deny it. Again, keep it up

                    • Tiger says:

                      Obviously you have no idea how much people are fed up with each other down there.
                      And BTW I don´t think the US and the west will do anything against it, since it sponsors islamic fascism all over the world, especially in ex-Yugo! I predict there will be a third war in Chechnya since Ramzan is getting out of control and then there will be more terror in Russia since we have now much more muslims in the cities and either the government ignores the interest of the majority and bows down a third time before them (sparking unrest again) or the problem gets solved by seperation. That is not about hate, but about things and how they go. Greece and Turkey also had their population exchange…and this will not be the last one in human history. Today, there are no real claims against each other. The Greeks have their nation state and the Turks have their nation state and hence no interest for any unrest of wars of liberation.

                • Tiger says:

                  In order to achieve this goals the government must focus on domestic problems and not bother about other countries. Instead of fixing the roads we build military ports in Syria and Vietnam. When does it finally get into their heads that this is not the time for powerprojection when you boast a declining population with a low living standard?

    • Dr. Kevorkian says:

      MAC.
      I know, hating other people is part of your therapy.
      Now it’s time for your meds.

  10. (r)evolutionist says:

    The darkest days of Stalinism= the brightest day under a theocracy.

    • too much vodka says:

      Stalinism tended to kill much more people than any theocracy.Not that I’m going to defend the ayatollah’s, but how many millions of Iranians were already killed by the ayatollah regime? How many people died of starvation because of government politics? How many millions of Iranians were deported? Don’t start to believe your own negationist propaganda.

    • Tiger says:

      Don´t get confused. Communism and Islam are both bad to the humanity, even bad for Muslims and Communists as both get killed.

      • vorontsevich says:

        I’m pretty sure a billion or so muslims would disagree with you.

        • Tiger says:

          No, they agree in secret, but would not admit in public.

          • Asmodeus says:

            @Tiger: It’s Fanatism. Any Religion or any Ideology, with Fanatism, have always been “bad for Humanity”. Always.

            Any Religion with Fanatism has always been the best way to control people and invade any neighbor. Nothing new.

            • Tiger says:

              No, it is not just abstact Fanatism. Islam and Communism are fanatic per definitionem because they accept no tolerance. In a christian land you can be an atheist or adhere to another faith and still enjoy the same rights and duties as the christians do. But in a communist or islamic country that equality is denied. Try to smuggle a bible into North Korea or Saudi Arabia. They will show you the meaning of fanatism.

              • Asmodeus says:

                “…No, it is not just abstact Fanatism…”

                A thousand years of Middle Ages, Inquisition, Witch Burning and Jim Jones’ mass suicides prove that Fanatism can be Christian too.

                As said before, any religion/idelogy can be perverted with a dose of Fanatism.

                • Tiger says:

                  The Orthodox Church did none of those things. Inquisition was done by the Latin-Catholics and Witch Burning was common among protestants. Please do not throw different religions in one pot. Christianity effectively split in 1054 AD.

                  • Asmodeus says:

                    @Tiger,
                    You casually forgot that the Orthodox Church is Christian, and also a 1000+ years of obscurantist Middle Ages in all of Europe. That era is not regarded as full of lights, knowledge and progress. Quite the opposite.

                    See, I’m NOT against your beliefs. Against Fanatism of any kind, yes I am. Common people gets used to the worst things. Fanatism can pervert the best ideals/beliefs.

                    • Tiger says:

                      There is no common christian church now. We are all seperated for 1000 years and the Orthodox church considers the other churches to be heretic and in fact un-christian (and vice versa). So what they did and do is non of our business.
                      And when You talk about the middle ages, they may have been dark times for western Europe, but Byzantium was flourishing, until Crusaders from the west and Muslims from the East destroyed it. Upon the destruction of the Byzantine empire they plundered all the libraries and got the works of the antiquity and byzantine renaissance and brought them to Italy. All of Venice in fact is made of marble plundered from Constantinople and even the famous Venetian glass and Italian silk industry was transferred from Byzantine cities to Italy. And BTW Byzantium was Orthodox. So if You consider the middle ages to be obscure, speak for yourself and your people.

          • vorontsevich says:

            Where’s the proof of your statement? Can you somehow read minds or something? Lol.

            • Asmodeus says:

              @Tiger,

              Byzantium? How about a bit later? Did your church leaders spawned knowledge and science after the Fall of Constantinople, 700 years ago? Did your church leaders promoted the education to have the technological edge, or fought for the freedom and your Serfs? Did they?

              Did your church leaders were for preserving the same status quo for ages, or push the country forward?

              And I talk about the Church leaders, not about what you believe in. You mess them up.

              Now I get that you can’t understand fanatism.

              • Tiger says:

                You don´t understand the importance of the renaissance. All the mathematics and science was basically inspired by it. Today we know that the ancient greeks had an understanding of steam power (there were team powered elevators and doors in Constantinople BTW), physics, gravity, construction technology and so on and so forth.
                But as you said, the empire was conquered and most of its civilizational achievements destroyed with its people. Some of them emigrated to Italy helped to spark the renaissance. As most of our churchleaders had to guide their people through the troubles times of ottoman rule there was not much space for big innovations, but it was about the survival of the people and without them, we would have muslim states up to Vienna.
                This religion you obviously contempt so much, helped to transform a little fiefdom in the swamp-woods of eastern Europe to become the third rome, namely Muscovy, and the help to make out of nomads and semi-nomads the Russian nation that still stands for many cultural and technological achievements and that just within a few hundred years (and that was after the fall of Constantinople). And nota bene, there was no Roman Empire there, there was no developed civilization or infrastructure in these forests one could have built on, like in western Europe, where you had cities, walls, roads and aqueducts. They started from scratch with nothing. Seeing this I must admit that our church leaders have indeed not done a bad job in retrospective. In fact they have brought all the art, building technology and science to Russia. All you see today in Russia was a huge forest with some wooden villages approx. 600 to 500 years ago.

                • Asmodeus says:

                  “…they have brought all the art, building technology and science to Russia…” Probably that wasn’t enough for Peter the Great (he really wanted to catch up with the rest of Europe), and many other Tsars with the same trauma of “Backward Russia” (Peter’s words). Also for the Russians in 1917, who ended up banning Religion. An excess for sure, but the motive wasn’t only an occurrence. It had a solid base.

                  Sorry, but a 100-150 years ago Tsarist Russia hardly was on the edge of anything, it lagged behind teribly. Present day Russia, with all its problems, has a brighter future, even if you hate the idea.

                  • Tiger says:

                    Present day Russia is a petrol station with a brothel and an orphanarium. I wouldn´t remember the Russian Empire was eveyr anything close to this humiliating picture.
                    As of the relative backwardness of Russia during the times of Peter the Great, the impact of his modernization policies are seen by the modern literature to be exaggerated and quite limited to the elite. In fact the catholic states like hungary or poland were not really much more advanced during that time, even more backward.
                    And the “progressive” Swedes were defeated as were the Ottomans, who also displayed not efforts to show any modernization.
                    In fact, during Peters time, there were only states like England, The Netherlands and France, that showed creativity and innovation. The rest was as backward as Russia was.

                    • Asmodeus says:

                      Your comment didn’t contradict anything I wrote. Sorry.

                    • Tiger says:

                      In contradicts your statement about the tsarist era if you read it again.

                    • Asmodeus says:

                      Swedes were forced to change (they did) and the Ottomans disappeared from the same reason as Tsarist Russia did.

                      “…Present day Russia is a petrol station with a brothel and an orphanarium…”. If you think this way (which you know is not true at all), small wonder you dream to revive a paralyzed Tsarist Russia and kick start everything again. LOL.

                      Keep dreaming.

                    • Tiger says:

                      The Swedeish girls cannot go to a public pool in Malmö without getting raped by immigrants thanks to their “tolerance”. Good luck with that!

          • Tiger says:

            Otherwise they would not try to start their lives in Christian lands. If their culture is so great, why don´t they stay in Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and Turkey? No they will do everything to get to Russia, Germany, UK or France, because it is better there. They could also go to Saudi Arabia, but there they have less rights than in Europe or even Russia.

  11. zero says:

    Well, since you’re showing corpses, I guess it means you’ve finally run out of crosdressers.

  12. spiderplant says:

    there are a lot of documentaries and videos of it on youtube. They sent in 19 year old conscripts. Yeltsin should have been slapped just for that. As regards the Chechens they practised ethnic cleansing against Georgians and whatever Russians were left behind after ’89. Don’t be fooled. It is documented as well.

    • Tiger says:

      However these victims do not count for the “west”, like in the Balkans, the same goes for the Caucasus. For the west there are only victims who are supported by their Saudi masters.

    • zero says:

      “Should would coulda”. What’s your point? Yeltsin is dead, your ramblings won’t undo whatever happened there, most people don’t care about it being documented.

      • Tiger says:

        What do You know about what people care in Russia or not? It was their sons and husbands who were sent into this idiotic war that had no real military goal and that was planned by incompetent soviet-minded generals.

  13. gitchops says:

    A absolute brutal bloody sensless “civil” war and the chared bodies just drive that home this is war no special effects no heroes no colouring the reality of war this stuff needs to be shown good jon ER

    • Tiger says:

      Yes, the Chechens ethnically cleansed half a million Russians from that territory…how senseless to send the army…and of course those kids going in there, being stabbed in the back by cowards, were no heroes. Do You have no dignity at all?

  14. Tiger says:

    The war was a mistake and a waste of human lives. They should have given independence to all muslim republics, deport them all from the Russian cities to their homelands and sealed off the borders like the Israelis do, with fences and mines. Russia has enough space, but Putin wanted to play global power with a poor country. Now the Chechens rule the whole south of Russia up to Rostov and Samara. They all got FSB and MVD passports and go shoot Russians for fun. Putin says nothing about this and decorates Kadirov with awards and even named a street in Moscow after Kadirovs father Ahmad, who once said that the Chechens should kill all the Russiand. Thank you Vowa!

    • vorontsevich says:

      Lol. It was Yeltsin that started all the Chechen troubles, and yet Putin’s the bad guy.

      As for your suggestions as to what to do with the Muslim republics, do you realise that sort of thinking is the core of what is known as fascism? If you look at history, fascism hasn’t done anything good for Russia. Take a look at WWII.

      • Tiger says:

        No, it was the Chechens who started the war. They elected Dudaev (who btw swore his oath on the quran when he was inaugurated) and started to kick out the Russians from the area. Not Yelzin and not Putin had their finger in this game. Only these guys drew the wrong conclusion out of it. Back then I was a Putin supporter, but when I saw that this is going nowhere I understood that Putin is the same old commie dreaming of resurrecting a new USSR instead of fixing Russia.
        And granting independence to the muslism is not really fascism. It is what they want. But then it should be done in a way that also covers Russia´s interest. Fascism is when you kill all muslims and take their homelands and try to assimilate them. You note difference, I guess?

        • vorontsevich says:

          “Fascism is when you kill all muslims and take their homelands and try to assimilate them.” No thats just pure Islamphobia. Fascism is when you want to create a single national identity (with Mussolini it was some sort of Roman thing, with Hitler it was the “aryan race”). What you said was, we should lock off our borders and throw out all Muslims. Thats eerily similar to what Hitler did (except that Hitler used SS death squads to kill people, mainly “inferior” Russians). “is not really fascism.” Fascism isn’t just about killing, its about imposing your conceived “superiority” on others. Be it by locking them up in ghettos or by killing them.

          “but when I saw that this is going nowhere” Saw what was going nowhere? I don’t see Putin doing anything to “resurrect” the USSR.

          “No, it was the Chechens who started the war.” That wasn’t what started the WAR. WHat started the war, was Yeltsin and Dudaev never negotiating. They just went straight to arms. There were plenty of other options, but war. And even then, that idiot Yeltsin made sure that, the military’s hands were tied.

          • Tiger says:

            No, you got the wrong timeline. Dudaev was “elected” and promoted the independence of Chechnya from Russia and the persecution and expellation of the Russians from Chechnya. What followed was that approx. 500,000 people of non-Chechen origin (mostly Russians and Armenians) where forced to leave (that is called ethnic cleansing btw), approx. up to 100,000 of them perished. That was going on between 1991 and 1994. Then, when the problem could not be ignored anymore Yeltstin decided to act (too late). The rest is known to you I guess.
            So what exactly should Yeltsin have negotiated with Dudaev who killed or driven out half a million of his citizens? Did you get your info from kavkazcenter? This Dudaev and his people killed Russians like cattle. You do not need to talk about patriotism any more if that does not concern you.

            • vorontsevich says:

              Yeltsin could have negotiated some kind of ceasefire, he could offered greater anonymity, heck he could have offered plenty of things. There were other options than going to war, and even when he did decide to go to war, he made sure the military had their hands tied around their balls.

              And BTW, when you say “negotiated with Dudaev who killed or driven out half a million of his citizens?” you make it sound like Yeltsin actually gived a shyte about his citizens anywhere, let alone in Chechnya. 90’s.

              Just because I don’t advocate “eye-for-an-eye tactic” and killing half a million Chechens just because they started it, I’m not a patriot? Lol. You keep thinking that, it won’t change my mind.

              And BTW, you are bold to talk about patriotism.

              • Tiger says:

                When a local politician kills your people you don´t make deals with them! They effectively murdered and cleansed Chechnya of half its population! It seems to me that you must live in another country.
                And yes, Yelstin gave a shyte about Russia and about Russians especially! It was only in 1994 when started to react, but then the Dudaev regime was in place for almost three years and armed to the teeth.
                And just FYI I never said anything about killing people, but a lot about a civilzed divorce of nations that simply cannot live together. Ireland and the UK have split, the Greeks and Turkey exchanged their minorities in the 20s, the Germans left their old eastern territories and came all to central Germany, even India and Pakistan exchanged people based on religion in order to avoid civil wars (and in those areas where the muslims remained under hindu control there is no peace, like Cashmir). If you look at history there is unfortunately one big lesson, namely that different religions, especially islam and christianity, cannot go together peacefully. It is just that way humans are.

                • vorontsevich says:

                  Sure, sure. But thankfully you’re nowhere near in charge, so your grand plans for this “divorce” of nations wont take place.

                  • Tiger says:

                    I am just predicting: either Russia cuts them loose or Russia desintegrates completely, because other regions will have it up to here with Muscovy´s incompetent rule.
                    We have seen that with the USSR and we will see that again with contemporary Russia.

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      I’ll bet you a good bottle of vodka that your “predictions” never come true. lol.

                    • Tiger says:

                      Give it 5 more years…

                    • vorontsevich says:

                      Bet you’d love that wouldn’t you. Have any of your bold predictions ever come true, lol? “Russia will disintegrate completely. Russia is a multi-ethnic country and has been for centuries. Just because a pessimist like you makes a prediction, doesn’t mean in the slightest way, that you are right, or will be right.

                    • Tiger says:

                      I hope that You are right, but the current trend speaks rather for my gloomy prediction. At least we will see another war in the south and maybe tensions in the Volga region.
                      About Russia being a multicultural country you just forgot, that throughout the Russian history there was a clear supremacy of the Russian culture and the Orthodox faith with the other cultures taking seats in the second row. This is how it worked more or less, but it was totally transparent to everybody from the beginning so everybody know what is going on. The revolution changed the game and introduced artificial concepts of equality that have never been there and of course this did not work since the USSR desintegrated largely to ethnic and religious reasons. So trying to reapeat the USSR again with the modification of more or less free market economy will crash for the same reasons. Maybe this is too complex for you. So lets put it this way. If your car´s brakes do not work and yet you fit it with a new engine you will still crash again.

  15. Ball Breaker says:

    Tiger, it seems you want Russia to become Yugoslavia (and for the same fanatic/moronic reasons). An ex-country that once had common goals but… it was “better” to deepen the divisions and fight each other. You have a bloody war, but you keep your “pride”… LOL.

    Small wonder why you have problems with “Asmodeus” about what’s Fanatism. It turns to Fascism very easily.

    • Tiger says:

      Have You ever been to Yugoslavia or have you every met people from there? They did not want to live any more together and their government ignored this. At the end was the civil war. Today they are all seperated. They could have avoided this and seperate in a civilized manner. But it was communist dreamers who thought that you can eradicate the identitity of nations. Serbs and Croats look similar, they speak the same language, but they adhere to a differnt faith. Croats killed a million Serbs in WWII and you expect that they live peacefully together with this story in mind? Do you believe that a child in Chechnya who saw his father being killed by a Russian grenade loves Russians? Do you think that Russian kid whose father was beheaded by Chechens on the internet develops tolerance for islam and a sense of fraternity for these people? You must really come from another star.

    • Tiger says:

      Maybe my argumentations are too complex: Just look at the pictures above. This is how it looks like when different religions and cultures come together.

      • vorontsevich says:

        Look at America, a lot more religions and cultures together. And yet, they love together in relative “harmony”.

        • vorontsevich says:

          Typo: should read live together, not love. Lol.

          • Tiger says:

            Yes, that is why they live in separated suburbs and why there are very, very few mixed marriages. You barely see a kid that has mixed parents. Maybe some Vietnam Veteran who married a girl from Asia or some American married a mail order bride, but thats it. That is no racial harmony. You should go there and see. Besides, they have almost no muslims there, but mostly protestants (e.g. english and german descent) and catholics (e.g. latinos, irish, italians). So there is no religious hatred like in the Caucasus or in the Balkans. But still Latinos, WASPs and Blacks are usually living their own lives and don´t intermarry or live together on a larger scale, at least not the normal people. Of course the try do impose diversity and in academic cirles you hear people talking about tolerance, but that is all lip service (very similar to the USSR propaganda). In fact Obama is one of the rare exceptions and despite the fact that he has a white mother they consider him black and not mixed or half-white.

    • Tiger says:

      @Ball Breaker:
      Are you American? You should have been in Benghazi then. It would have been the learning experience of your lifetime!

  16. Ball Breaker says:

    @Tiger

    No, I’m not American. You should not try to imagine things to support your assumptions.

    • Tiger says:

      Doesn´t matter, just picture yourself living in a common state with this rage boys and tell me that it is gonna work out

      • Ball Breaker says:

        I can do that. I can also picture myself finding commen goals with “different people”, instead of cheering apartheid or ethnic cleansings that break up countries and lives for no reason.

        • Tiger says:

          Oh the hypocrisy!
          So, then we talk again AFTER you have lived with them for 10 years and see if you are still that “tolerant” and if it really has worked out for you.
          The thing with you naive guys is that you live in totally homogenic and well-off areas, have no idea of the everyday problems of multireligious cohabitation, and you are then again the first ones who pack their things and move on, once other nations or cultures move into your suburbs.
          But living in nice areas with houses and parks and lecturing others who live or lived in such areas about tolerance is just disgusting.
          It is like a Diesel pickup driver giving a formula 1 pilot advice about how to drift in corners.

          • Ball Breaker says:

            “…you live in totally homogenic and well-off areas…”. Really? You know me that well? LOL.

            “…have no idea of the everyday problems of multireligious cohabitation…”. Guess you don’t have any idea about me LOL. You? Me? That’s pointless.

            Again, you like to imagine tons of things without to support your ‘points’. I’m not American, but I have lived there, and also Brazil, Colombia, etc, etc. (That’s all you’ll get about “me”). These societies are far from perfect, but Intermarrying is far more common that you might think, for example… You’re dead wrong in many statements. You can believe whatever you want. I’m not convinced at all by your supremacist-apartheid hate ideology. For me, that’s the best way to destroy a country.

            • Tiger says:

              Yes, there is no racism in Brazil and Colombia, that is why you do not see any rich people who are not 100% of European descent (unless they are football players of course). Please spare me your propaganda.
              Intermarrying might be more often the case in Brazil than in South Africa lets say, but still it is quite limited. And not forget that during the civil war in Angola they troops of Savimbi shot everybody who had the slightest feature of European descent. But that´s just a notice.
              But here it was less about race but more about religions that don´t live together. The Chechens and the Russians are both white, but still went on each others throats.
              Just pay attention to the media this Friday, there will protests in the islamic world today and they will give you a test how your “tolerance” is met.

  17. Ball Breaker says:

    “…Intermarrying might be more often the case in Brazil than in South Africa lets say, but still it is quite limited…”.

    LOL. You don’t have any clue on that at all.

    “…during the civil war in Angola… “, humm… Angola? Well, you can talk also about a Civil War in Mars. No relation with this at all.

    “… there will protests in the islamic world today…”. They protest because they considered insulted by their enemies, who happened to be jewish people. Now try to insult in a similar way these same jewish people and you’ll have widespread condemnation. Looks like that these levels up the equation.

    For me, your supremacist-apartheid ideology is the best way to destroy any country, and if you want to weaken Russia (or destroy it), well, go for it.

  18. axxius says:

    as sorry as I am for those poor Russian boys who I’m sure didn’t really cared if Chechenia is Russian or not and still died for their generals stupidity, I must also say that charred Russian corpses are a pleasant view for many countries around Russia, as we hate them from all our heart. And not just the Caucasus countries, but European countries too, like Hungary, Poland or Rumania, which felt the Soviet “kindness” fully more than once.

  19. luis curiel says:

    When war becomes art becomes meaningless humanity …..

Leave a Reply

  • Popular: